I am not convinced. Those same people who worked upon the project abandoned their own attempts at a cure. They used precious resources that could have gone towards rebuilding their societies in the aftermath to instead create a machine that would erase their failures. How is that any different to us, Hydaelyn? We could not find a solution except to force one by dint of our collective strength. We, at the time, did not understand how to let nature take its course. Yet your precious mortals should have known better. They saw no future for themselves and gave up. They were unable to see that life would have returned in time had they but tried to cultivate it.
I will say it plain: by your own standards, they are not worth saving, for they couldn't withstand a calamity of Ascian making let alone one from the cosmos.
Our very presumptions about this are at odds. Where you believe they gave up, I believe they sought salvation for others. Where you believe their society was failing, I believe they must have had the strength to support this effort. And where you believe they spent their energy on something with no benefit, I believe that studying both Alexander and the Crystal Tower must have surely offered them many insights into aetherology that would provide benefit to them after the project ended.
But even should I accept all your presumptions over mine, then my answer remains and must be this: They did it not for themselves, but for others. They gave of themselves to spare others. That is the difference, Hades. The final line in the sand was not our people giving up and surrendering themselves -- in fact, that is what we of the Hydaelyn faction did, to oppose the rest of our people from restoring what was lost at the cost of others.
So if I were to take their machine right now and use it to avert the Final Days, you would approve?
If I were to erase seven ages of turmoil, seven ages of innovation, seven ages of births and deaths and lives and legacies, you would approve because it would bring our people together and would not involve sacrifice to bring about Zodiark?
Our people could have learnt to withstand Meteion eventually had you introduced the concept of death gradually. You never gave them that chance. Or rather, Hermes never gave them that chance, and then you kept your counsel until it was too late to do aught. Meanwhile the Exarch sacrifices numerous generations but 'tis all well and good because "look at what we have learnt from their erasure"!
We are never going to see eye to eye on this, Hydaelyn, and I doubt I will ever forgive you. I said I would not raise a hand against you and I should think you know I always keep my word, but the camaraderie we once shared is long broken.
To erase it 'twould be terrible. Could you take the same path, then I would wish you and the new timeline you split off from ours all the luck in the world. For a split would result, and naught would be erased.
Yet... I beg your indulgence in one more thing. Before your name was revealed, while you wore this form I did not recognize, I've no doubt you recognized me. I ask not why you kept the secret, but rather, why -- with all that lies between us, and the camaraderie broken -- did you show me courtesy and kindness? (For that was courtesy and kindness, by your standards -- I recognize that in you still, as I do now in this exchange of thoughts which has remained such.)
If I had shown you aught else but courtesy when you did not know my face, you would have questioned why - why would a perfect stranger hate you so? Why would a stranger seem to loathe the sight of you? And you would pry, and you would discover a man calling himself Emet-Selch who runs an alchemy business in Camelot, and then you would show up when I least wanted it.
Overlooking that not all people are courteous and decent; some are, to put it mildly, aggravating by nature?
And feigning no knowledge of the greatsword would have cost you nothing and helped me not at all, which you did not do. Or even assisting me in battle, which you could have avoid without guilt, knowing perfectly well that I can fend for myself. For that matter, what of claiming Garlean heritage and thus being intolerant and scornful of an apparent Eorzean Hyur, or one wielding a sword in the manner of one?
And let us not pretend you thought that concealing your name would last. All told, the balance of your reasoning does not match the weight of your actions... particularly since we continue to be civil and courteous to each other, gulf of actions of eras notwithstanding.
[ It irritates him how she continues to poke and prod at this. ]
What answer do you want out of me? I am simply tired of pretending to be someone I am not. I never had to wear a mask for so long before and until my death I had worn one for twelve thousand years. Can you not leave it at that? I do not care to dissect the whys and wherefores of my own actions. Especially not now.
You proclaim yourself tired of wearing a mask and yet at the same time do not care to understand your own motivations, and you wonder at my confusion?
I persist... because whatsoever enmity lies between us, whatever camaraderie has died to never be reborn, nonetheless you and I cannot help but share a bond. We two are the only ones who can ever, will ever, understand that gulf of twelve millennia. None else could - none other from the Etheirys of now, nor its shards, nor even Hythlodaeus. You are the only person I can speak to of watching the star struggle and strive ever forward who can comprehend what I mean, and I the only one you can. It is not a bond we chose, but it is one that exists nonetheless. And thus I wonder if you recognize that, if you realize that, if you understand that. And I wonder, too, where the line within you now lies, the one you have ever maintained and we who know you have ever recognized, between the grouchy curmudgeon Emet-Selch and the good and kind man (albeit still something of a curmudgeon) Hades.
[ He sits there staring at his phone and hates how right she is. Hythlodaeus as he is now has no idea of the gulf of time between the Sundering and the present day. The most his friend can offer is comfort during his worst moments - but he can see how it wears on them and it only increases his guilt. Lahabrea's obsession had grown to madness before his death; Elidibus could barely remember his own name by the end; and the Warrior(s) of Light can barely imagine living past a century let alone several millennia.
He hates it. He's tired of it. He doesn't know what else to do but put one foot in front of the other and get through each day as it comes.
We wouldn't be the only ones who understood mortal struggles if you hadn't sundered our people, he thinks resentfully. But he knows better than to express that to her. ]
Even if I were to acknowledge that such a bond exists - so what? I am not going to sit around and recount centuries of trauma and heartbreak for your amusement when 'tis plain that you cannot seem to grasp that not everyone shares your lack of sentiment. If you understand me as well as you claim then you should understand why I wish to keep to myself now. I am tired, Hydaelyn. The world is no longer my concern. I should be in the aetherial sea with Hythlodaeus - the Hythlodaeus of my own time - waiting for our souls to unravel and join the rest of our people. But I am not. I am here, with an old friend who instead has yet to sacrifice himself to Zodiark, and I have a unique opportunity to prevent it from ever happening.
Nothing else matters. Do you understand? It is difficult enough caring about the business which keeps us clothed and fed. If I had my way, I would be stepping off the White Cliffs or tying stones to my feet and throwing myself at the mercy of the creatures of the sea. Any kindness I show to you or anyone else is in the sole interest of making life here as simple as possible and to give myself work so that I do not have time to think about how much more comforting death would be.
[Ridiculous and foolish, is her kneejerk response, though she wouldn't express it so. But, on reflection, is such a thought truly so surprising? She forgets, after all this time, how her people treated their return to the star -- having not taken that path herself, not quite the way they did in any case. And she really ought not to be surprised that Hades had taken entirely the wrong lesson she'd hoped for out of all this, either.]
[Though he might be pleased to know his barbs did hurt. 'Lack of sentiment', indeed. Does he cast her as so heartless because he truly believes it, or simply because that is easier to handle than accepting the nuance of the situation, and it is easier to demonize her that way?]
I understand the tiredness, the exhaustion, the desire for rest, as no other can. And I also know you, and understand that no amount of 'work' or distraction would spare you from contemplating that rest, not for long. Nor pursuing it, were you so inclined. You have chosen to live. None of this 'if I had my way' or 'I should be this or that' -- it is not this world keeping you here, nor Hytholdaeus, but your own choice.
Would it be wrong of me to suspect how guilty you feel about that choice? Would it surprise you to know that I, who have ever embraced life and the living of it, before and now, crave the rest I have been denied and feel guilt about such a desire? That I do not entirely know where my joy of life ends and my obligation to continue helping and guiding ends?
We are reflections of each other, Hades. We share so much and yet also stand at such stark contrast to each other. Yet we have both chosen life, again. Something inside me tells me that we can help each other embrace that choice, and make the most of those lives... because only we can know what that choice means to us.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2022-09-16 03:58 am (UTC)I will say it plain: by your own standards, they are not worth saving, for they couldn't withstand a calamity of Ascian making let alone one from the cosmos.
no subject
Date: 2022-09-16 04:14 pm (UTC)But even should I accept all your presumptions over mine, then my answer remains and must be this: They did it not for themselves, but for others. They gave of themselves to spare others. That is the difference, Hades. The final line in the sand was not our people giving up and surrendering themselves -- in fact, that is what we of the Hydaelyn faction did, to oppose the rest of our people from restoring what was lost at the cost of others.
no subject
Date: 2022-09-18 05:53 am (UTC)If I were to erase seven ages of turmoil, seven ages of innovation, seven ages of births and deaths and lives and legacies, you would approve because it would bring our people together and would not involve sacrifice to bring about Zodiark?
Our people could have learnt to withstand Meteion eventually had you introduced the concept of death gradually. You never gave them that chance. Or rather, Hermes never gave them that chance, and then you kept your counsel until it was too late to do aught. Meanwhile the Exarch sacrifices numerous generations but 'tis all well and good because "look at what we have learnt from their erasure"!
We are never going to see eye to eye on this, Hydaelyn, and I doubt I will ever forgive you. I said I would not raise a hand against you and I should think you know I always keep my word, but the camaraderie we once shared is long broken.
no subject
Date: 2022-09-26 12:33 am (UTC)Yet... I beg your indulgence in one more thing. Before your name was revealed, while you wore this form I did not recognize, I've no doubt you recognized me. I ask not why you kept the secret, but rather, why -- with all that lies between us, and the camaraderie broken -- did you show me courtesy and kindness? (For that was courtesy and kindness, by your standards -- I recognize that in you still, as I do now in this exchange of thoughts which has remained such.)
no subject
Date: 2022-10-01 04:41 pm (UTC)Not that it matters now.
no subject
Date: 2022-10-01 05:15 pm (UTC)Overlooking that not all people are courteous and decent; some are, to put it mildly, aggravating by nature?
And feigning no knowledge of the greatsword would have cost you nothing and helped me not at all, which you did not do. Or even assisting me in battle, which you could have avoid without guilt, knowing perfectly well that I can fend for myself. For that matter, what of claiming Garlean heritage and thus being intolerant and scornful of an apparent Eorzean Hyur, or one wielding a sword in the manner of one?
And let us not pretend you thought that concealing your name would last. All told, the balance of your reasoning does not match the weight of your actions... particularly since we continue to be civil and courteous to each other, gulf of actions of eras notwithstanding.
apologies, been a long week
Date: 2022-10-10 09:46 pm (UTC)What answer do you want out of me? I am simply tired of pretending to be someone I am not. I never had to wear a mask for so long before and until my death I had worn one for twelve thousand years. Can you not leave it at that? I do not care to dissect the whys and wherefores of my own actions. Especially not now.
S'okay!
Date: 2022-10-12 01:17 pm (UTC)I persist... because whatsoever enmity lies between us, whatever camaraderie has died to never be reborn, nonetheless you and I cannot help but share a bond. We two are the only ones who can ever, will ever, understand that gulf of twelve millennia. None else could - none other from the Etheirys of now, nor its shards, nor even Hythlodaeus. You are the only person I can speak to of watching the star struggle and strive ever forward who can comprehend what I mean, and I the only one you can. It is not a bond we chose, but it is one that exists nonetheless. And thus I wonder if you recognize that, if you realize that, if you understand that. And I wonder, too, where the line within you now lies, the one you have ever maintained and we who know you have ever recognized, between the grouchy curmudgeon Emet-Selch and the good and kind man (albeit still something of a curmudgeon) Hades.
no subject
Date: 2022-10-13 04:33 am (UTC)He hates it. He's tired of it. He doesn't know what else to do but put one foot in front of the other and get through each day as it comes.
We wouldn't be the only ones who understood mortal struggles if you hadn't sundered our people, he thinks resentfully. But he knows better than to express that to her. ]
Even if I were to acknowledge that such a bond exists - so what? I am not going to sit around and recount centuries of trauma and heartbreak for your amusement when 'tis plain that you cannot seem to grasp that not everyone shares your lack of sentiment. If you understand me as well as you claim then you should understand why I wish to keep to myself now. I am tired, Hydaelyn. The world is no longer my concern. I should be in the aetherial sea with Hythlodaeus - the Hythlodaeus of my own time - waiting for our souls to unravel and join the rest of our people. But I am not. I am here, with an old friend who instead has yet to sacrifice himself to Zodiark, and I have a unique opportunity to prevent it from ever happening.
Nothing else matters. Do you understand? It is difficult enough caring about the business which keeps us clothed and fed. If I had my way, I would be stepping off the White Cliffs or tying stones to my feet and throwing myself at the mercy of the creatures of the sea. Any kindness I show to you or anyone else is in the sole interest of making life here as simple as possible and to give myself work so that I do not have time to think about how much more comforting death would be.
no subject
Date: 2022-10-17 02:22 pm (UTC)[Though he might be pleased to know his barbs did hurt. 'Lack of sentiment', indeed. Does he cast her as so heartless because he truly believes it, or simply because that is easier to handle than accepting the nuance of the situation, and it is easier to demonize her that way?]
I understand the tiredness, the exhaustion, the desire for rest, as no other can. And I also know you, and understand that no amount of 'work' or distraction would spare you from contemplating that rest, not for long. Nor pursuing it, were you so inclined. You have chosen to live. None of this 'if I had my way' or 'I should be this or that' -- it is not this world keeping you here, nor Hytholdaeus, but your own choice.
Would it be wrong of me to suspect how guilty you feel about that choice? Would it surprise you to know that I, who have ever embraced life and the living of it, before and now, crave the rest I have been denied and feel guilt about such a desire? That I do not entirely know where my joy of life ends and my obligation to continue helping and guiding ends?
We are reflections of each other, Hades. We share so much and yet also stand at such stark contrast to each other. Yet we have both chosen life, again. Something inside me tells me that we can help each other embrace that choice, and make the most of those lives... because only we can know what that choice means to us.