[He does not understand, perhaps never shall, that forgiveness is for the one forgiving. The world is full of pain and suffering as it is -- she saw to that. Why live holding to hatred and rancor? Especially when this new life is an unexpected gift?]
Long, long, long have I thought on the choices that led us here, and each time my conclusion was the same: I cannot conceive of what we might have done, besides Zodiark, to stop the song of the End.
Make no mistake, I consider this a flaw of my own imagination. I have no doubt that some other choice could have spared us long enough to take the battle to the Meteia properly. But I do not know it. And the idea of Zodiark provided such a clear and immediate response, how can I argue that some uncertain and unknown path be sought out, while the Final Days continued? Indeed, for many, to abandon a sure protection with sure costs in favor of an unknown one with unknown costs would be a moral affront. And so I conclude, at the end of my musings, that it is possible, perhaps even likely, that were my vote to be counted, it would have been on your side.
Even known what would come.
It was the second use, and the third proposed, that I could not and would not abide, memory or no. Even so, had we stopped at the second, I'd have let it pass. Memory or no, that is what I thought even then, and why I protested onwards in the hopes that perhaps I could split the timelines, create one where we survived and healed and grew.
We, of course, know what came of that.
After writing the above, I set this message aside with intent to return to it with calmer thoughts and eyes, and now that I have done so, I find myself growing somewhat vexed by your repeated anger over how the people of the shards view Hydaelyn. (Not Venat, though I understand why you see no difference therein.) Is it anger that the name is revered when you hate it so, and feel it deserving of that hate? Or that you feel it is a comfort to me, where you would see none come to me?
[She ought to leave well enough alone, and yet -- permitting him to bottle all this up and let it fester will cause him grievous harm. Better to lance the boil, to let the caustic contents of the wound flow free, in the hopes that it can begin to heal. Let him resent the one who opened it, let the life he has here pack it with gentle gauze and warmth, and perhaps someday Hades can find his soul as light as that perpetual grump can manage.]
[As for her? He'd shone light on a thought she'd long ago let die -- a sundered world where he and the others accepted what must be, lived up to his disdain of becoming megalomaniacal maniacs, and used their power for the blessing and benefit of all. A world in which none would know Hydaelyn by any name or form, and would have no need to, because they had great men to advise and aid them. If he knew he'd dug up such an image, rendered barbed and bitter by time, he'd likely gloat.]
[If he could ever credence that she once imagined such a thing in the first place, of course.]
[ He stares at her response for a long time. He feels as though he should feel something. More anger, perhaps. But there is only numbness. What should he say to all that? He was tempered, even if he was aware of his own will. He was not allowed to let his grief pass. She would probably decry it as an excuse though. He doesn't need her to tell him how it sounds. His penance is the anguish of understanding the suffering he has wrought, anguish deep and dark enough to threaten to swallow him in whole, and it will stay with him until he finally, truly returns to the star.
This time he doesn't respond until the next day. And when he does, he simply writes this: ]
[He is right; she considers that an excuse, when a traveler's ward could so easily shield against the effect. Were she to speak her thoughts, she would think either he chose tempering willingly in hopes it would strengthen his commitment or dull his grief -- or that he simply believe himself to be tempered, because it explains and forgives much.]
[But she will not speak those thoughts, not any time soon. They serve no purpose.]
I cannot answer to the first, not in any way you'd credence. But as for the second, 'tis no comfort save for those few who know the tale in its entirety and still speak the name without loathing. Well might we both suspect how most people would treat that name instead, if they but knew what I had truly done to them.
[ A ward which was not present at the time of Zodiark's summoning. As if any of them could have predicted it would be needed.
Regardless, it's too late now to think of what should have been done. He was freed of Zodiark's tempering in another world so the point is moot. ]
Fine. Then answer me this one last thing, Hydaelyn: your desire for mortal man was that they learn to accept loss and hardship and continue to move forward in spite of it. Yet you allowed the Crystal Exarch's manipulation of time to further your own plans - facilitated my death, even - and never once criticised him for it. In fact I distinctly remember you praising his efforts.
I do not hold any grudge towards you for my death on the First. I made my choices freely and reaped the result of my failure. But I cannot abide hypocrisy, Hydaelyn. I know the Exarch came from a world where our Eighth Umbral Calamity succeeded. If you truly held any sort of regard for man surpassing despair, tell me this: why praise THEM for resurrecting their loved ones? You should have condemned him, as you condemned all the rest of us.
A fair question, yet the circumstances have a critical distinction. Of all those who worked upon the project which sent the Crystal Exarch back to the past of the First, only he himself would be even the slightest bit of a beneficiary of such a project. All others who participated would gain nothing save the knowledge that they had tried -- for they could not ever have any idea whether he would succeed or fail, nor ever touch again the separate timeline they created.
What they gained from their efforts was not a return to their old lives, not a denial of their pain, not a rejection of their suffering; rather, they helped others, even if those others are another version of themselves. If in the process they helped themselves, it was by replacing despair with hope, by transmuting agony into altruism, and by incidentally learning much in the span of the project that would aid them in rebuilding their own shattered civilization.
I said earlier I would have gladly separated our own timelines, to save our people, if you recall. Had, by fortune or fate or dint of effort, the third sacrifice to Zodiark been abandoned, such would have been the result, and I argued against it unto the very end. That would not have destroyed the timeline we knew... but I suspect it was impossible, looking back on it now, for such a thing to occur given how things happened.
I am not convinced. Those same people who worked upon the project abandoned their own attempts at a cure. They used precious resources that could have gone towards rebuilding their societies in the aftermath to instead create a machine that would erase their failures. How is that any different to us, Hydaelyn? We could not find a solution except to force one by dint of our collective strength. We, at the time, did not understand how to let nature take its course. Yet your precious mortals should have known better. They saw no future for themselves and gave up. They were unable to see that life would have returned in time had they but tried to cultivate it.
I will say it plain: by your own standards, they are not worth saving, for they couldn't withstand a calamity of Ascian making let alone one from the cosmos.
Our very presumptions about this are at odds. Where you believe they gave up, I believe they sought salvation for others. Where you believe their society was failing, I believe they must have had the strength to support this effort. And where you believe they spent their energy on something with no benefit, I believe that studying both Alexander and the Crystal Tower must have surely offered them many insights into aetherology that would provide benefit to them after the project ended.
But even should I accept all your presumptions over mine, then my answer remains and must be this: They did it not for themselves, but for others. They gave of themselves to spare others. That is the difference, Hades. The final line in the sand was not our people giving up and surrendering themselves -- in fact, that is what we of the Hydaelyn faction did, to oppose the rest of our people from restoring what was lost at the cost of others.
So if I were to take their machine right now and use it to avert the Final Days, you would approve?
If I were to erase seven ages of turmoil, seven ages of innovation, seven ages of births and deaths and lives and legacies, you would approve because it would bring our people together and would not involve sacrifice to bring about Zodiark?
Our people could have learnt to withstand Meteion eventually had you introduced the concept of death gradually. You never gave them that chance. Or rather, Hermes never gave them that chance, and then you kept your counsel until it was too late to do aught. Meanwhile the Exarch sacrifices numerous generations but 'tis all well and good because "look at what we have learnt from their erasure"!
We are never going to see eye to eye on this, Hydaelyn, and I doubt I will ever forgive you. I said I would not raise a hand against you and I should think you know I always keep my word, but the camaraderie we once shared is long broken.
To erase it 'twould be terrible. Could you take the same path, then I would wish you and the new timeline you split off from ours all the luck in the world. For a split would result, and naught would be erased.
Yet... I beg your indulgence in one more thing. Before your name was revealed, while you wore this form I did not recognize, I've no doubt you recognized me. I ask not why you kept the secret, but rather, why -- with all that lies between us, and the camaraderie broken -- did you show me courtesy and kindness? (For that was courtesy and kindness, by your standards -- I recognize that in you still, as I do now in this exchange of thoughts which has remained such.)
If I had shown you aught else but courtesy when you did not know my face, you would have questioned why - why would a perfect stranger hate you so? Why would a stranger seem to loathe the sight of you? And you would pry, and you would discover a man calling himself Emet-Selch who runs an alchemy business in Camelot, and then you would show up when I least wanted it.
Overlooking that not all people are courteous and decent; some are, to put it mildly, aggravating by nature?
And feigning no knowledge of the greatsword would have cost you nothing and helped me not at all, which you did not do. Or even assisting me in battle, which you could have avoid without guilt, knowing perfectly well that I can fend for myself. For that matter, what of claiming Garlean heritage and thus being intolerant and scornful of an apparent Eorzean Hyur, or one wielding a sword in the manner of one?
And let us not pretend you thought that concealing your name would last. All told, the balance of your reasoning does not match the weight of your actions... particularly since we continue to be civil and courteous to each other, gulf of actions of eras notwithstanding.
[ It irritates him how she continues to poke and prod at this. ]
What answer do you want out of me? I am simply tired of pretending to be someone I am not. I never had to wear a mask for so long before and until my death I had worn one for twelve thousand years. Can you not leave it at that? I do not care to dissect the whys and wherefores of my own actions. Especially not now.
You proclaim yourself tired of wearing a mask and yet at the same time do not care to understand your own motivations, and you wonder at my confusion?
I persist... because whatsoever enmity lies between us, whatever camaraderie has died to never be reborn, nonetheless you and I cannot help but share a bond. We two are the only ones who can ever, will ever, understand that gulf of twelve millennia. None else could - none other from the Etheirys of now, nor its shards, nor even Hythlodaeus. You are the only person I can speak to of watching the star struggle and strive ever forward who can comprehend what I mean, and I the only one you can. It is not a bond we chose, but it is one that exists nonetheless. And thus I wonder if you recognize that, if you realize that, if you understand that. And I wonder, too, where the line within you now lies, the one you have ever maintained and we who know you have ever recognized, between the grouchy curmudgeon Emet-Selch and the good and kind man (albeit still something of a curmudgeon) Hades.
[ He sits there staring at his phone and hates how right she is. Hythlodaeus as he is now has no idea of the gulf of time between the Sundering and the present day. The most his friend can offer is comfort during his worst moments - but he can see how it wears on them and it only increases his guilt. Lahabrea's obsession had grown to madness before his death; Elidibus could barely remember his own name by the end; and the Warrior(s) of Light can barely imagine living past a century let alone several millennia.
He hates it. He's tired of it. He doesn't know what else to do but put one foot in front of the other and get through each day as it comes.
We wouldn't be the only ones who understood mortal struggles if you hadn't sundered our people, he thinks resentfully. But he knows better than to express that to her. ]
Even if I were to acknowledge that such a bond exists - so what? I am not going to sit around and recount centuries of trauma and heartbreak for your amusement when 'tis plain that you cannot seem to grasp that not everyone shares your lack of sentiment. If you understand me as well as you claim then you should understand why I wish to keep to myself now. I am tired, Hydaelyn. The world is no longer my concern. I should be in the aetherial sea with Hythlodaeus - the Hythlodaeus of my own time - waiting for our souls to unravel and join the rest of our people. But I am not. I am here, with an old friend who instead has yet to sacrifice himself to Zodiark, and I have a unique opportunity to prevent it from ever happening.
Nothing else matters. Do you understand? It is difficult enough caring about the business which keeps us clothed and fed. If I had my way, I would be stepping off the White Cliffs or tying stones to my feet and throwing myself at the mercy of the creatures of the sea. Any kindness I show to you or anyone else is in the sole interest of making life here as simple as possible and to give myself work so that I do not have time to think about how much more comforting death would be.
[Ridiculous and foolish, is her kneejerk response, though she wouldn't express it so. But, on reflection, is such a thought truly so surprising? She forgets, after all this time, how her people treated their return to the star -- having not taken that path herself, not quite the way they did in any case. And she really ought not to be surprised that Hades had taken entirely the wrong lesson she'd hoped for out of all this, either.]
[Though he might be pleased to know his barbs did hurt. 'Lack of sentiment', indeed. Does he cast her as so heartless because he truly believes it, or simply because that is easier to handle than accepting the nuance of the situation, and it is easier to demonize her that way?]
I understand the tiredness, the exhaustion, the desire for rest, as no other can. And I also know you, and understand that no amount of 'work' or distraction would spare you from contemplating that rest, not for long. Nor pursuing it, were you so inclined. You have chosen to live. None of this 'if I had my way' or 'I should be this or that' -- it is not this world keeping you here, nor Hytholdaeus, but your own choice.
Would it be wrong of me to suspect how guilty you feel about that choice? Would it surprise you to know that I, who have ever embraced life and the living of it, before and now, crave the rest I have been denied and feel guilt about such a desire? That I do not entirely know where my joy of life ends and my obligation to continue helping and guiding ends?
We are reflections of each other, Hades. We share so much and yet also stand at such stark contrast to each other. Yet we have both chosen life, again. Something inside me tells me that we can help each other embrace that choice, and make the most of those lives... because only we can know what that choice means to us.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2022-09-04 05:44 pm (UTC)Long, long, long have I thought on the choices that led us here, and each time my conclusion was the same: I cannot conceive of what we might have done, besides Zodiark, to stop the song of the End.
Make no mistake, I consider this a flaw of my own imagination. I have no doubt that some other choice could have spared us long enough to take the battle to the Meteia properly. But I do not know it. And the idea of Zodiark provided such a clear and immediate response, how can I argue that some uncertain and unknown path be sought out, while the Final Days continued? Indeed, for many, to abandon a sure protection with sure costs in favor of an unknown one with unknown costs would be a moral affront. And so I conclude, at the end of my musings, that it is possible, perhaps even likely, that were my vote to be counted, it would have been on your side.
Even known what would come.
It was the second use, and the third proposed, that I could not and would not abide, memory or no. Even so, had we stopped at the second, I'd have let it pass. Memory or no, that is what I thought even then, and why I protested onwards in the hopes that perhaps I could split the timelines, create one where we survived and healed and grew.
We, of course, know what came of that.
After writing the above, I set this message aside with intent to return to it with calmer thoughts and eyes, and now that I have done so, I find myself growing somewhat vexed by your repeated anger over how the people of the shards view Hydaelyn. (Not Venat, though I understand why you see no difference therein.) Is it anger that the name is revered when you hate it so, and feel it deserving of that hate? Or that you feel it is a comfort to me, where you would see none come to me?
[She ought to leave well enough alone, and yet -- permitting him to bottle all this up and let it fester will cause him grievous harm. Better to lance the boil, to let the caustic contents of the wound flow free, in the hopes that it can begin to heal. Let him resent the one who opened it, let the life he has here pack it with gentle gauze and warmth, and perhaps someday Hades can find his soul as light as that perpetual grump can manage.]
[As for her? He'd shone light on a thought she'd long ago let die -- a sundered world where he and the others accepted what must be, lived up to his disdain of becoming megalomaniacal maniacs, and used their power for the blessing and benefit of all. A world in which none would know Hydaelyn by any name or form, and would have no need to, because they had great men to advise and aid them. If he knew he'd dug up such an image, rendered barbed and bitter by time, he'd likely gloat.]
[If he could ever credence that she once imagined such a thing in the first place, of course.]
no subject
Date: 2022-09-05 06:15 am (UTC)This time he doesn't respond until the next day. And when he does, he simply writes this: ]
Both.
no subject
Date: 2022-09-07 01:59 am (UTC)[But she will not speak those thoughts, not any time soon. They serve no purpose.]
I cannot answer to the first, not in any way you'd credence. But as for the second, 'tis no comfort save for those few who know the tale in its entirety and still speak the name without loathing. Well might we both suspect how most people would treat that name instead, if they but knew what I had truly done to them.
no subject
Date: 2022-09-07 04:30 pm (UTC)Regardless, it's too late now to think of what should have been done. He was freed of Zodiark's tempering in another world so the point is moot. ]
Fine. Then answer me this one last thing, Hydaelyn: your desire for mortal man was that they learn to accept loss and hardship and continue to move forward in spite of it. Yet you allowed the Crystal Exarch's manipulation of time to further your own plans - facilitated my death, even - and never once criticised him for it. In fact I distinctly remember you praising his efforts.
I do not hold any grudge towards you for my death on the First. I made my choices freely and reaped the result of my failure. But I cannot abide hypocrisy, Hydaelyn. I know the Exarch came from a world where our Eighth Umbral Calamity succeeded. If you truly held any sort of regard for man surpassing despair, tell me this: why praise THEM for resurrecting their loved ones? You should have condemned him, as you condemned all the rest of us.
no subject
Date: 2022-09-07 05:10 pm (UTC)Of all those who worked upon the project which sent the Crystal Exarch back to the past of the First, only he himself would be even the slightest bit of a beneficiary of such a project. All others who participated would gain nothing save the knowledge that they had tried -- for they could not ever have any idea whether he would succeed or fail, nor ever touch again the separate timeline they created.
What they gained from their efforts was not a return to their old lives, not a denial of their pain, not a rejection of their suffering; rather, they helped others, even if those others are another version of themselves. If in the process they helped themselves, it was by replacing despair with hope, by transmuting agony into altruism, and by incidentally learning much in the span of the project that would aid them in rebuilding their own shattered civilization.
I said earlier I would have gladly separated our own timelines, to save our people, if you recall. Had, by fortune or fate or dint of effort, the third sacrifice to Zodiark been abandoned, such would have been the result, and I argued against it unto the very end. That would not have destroyed the timeline we knew... but I suspect it was impossible, looking back on it now, for such a thing to occur given how things happened.
no subject
Date: 2022-09-16 03:58 am (UTC)I will say it plain: by your own standards, they are not worth saving, for they couldn't withstand a calamity of Ascian making let alone one from the cosmos.
no subject
Date: 2022-09-16 04:14 pm (UTC)But even should I accept all your presumptions over mine, then my answer remains and must be this: They did it not for themselves, but for others. They gave of themselves to spare others. That is the difference, Hades. The final line in the sand was not our people giving up and surrendering themselves -- in fact, that is what we of the Hydaelyn faction did, to oppose the rest of our people from restoring what was lost at the cost of others.
no subject
Date: 2022-09-18 05:53 am (UTC)If I were to erase seven ages of turmoil, seven ages of innovation, seven ages of births and deaths and lives and legacies, you would approve because it would bring our people together and would not involve sacrifice to bring about Zodiark?
Our people could have learnt to withstand Meteion eventually had you introduced the concept of death gradually. You never gave them that chance. Or rather, Hermes never gave them that chance, and then you kept your counsel until it was too late to do aught. Meanwhile the Exarch sacrifices numerous generations but 'tis all well and good because "look at what we have learnt from their erasure"!
We are never going to see eye to eye on this, Hydaelyn, and I doubt I will ever forgive you. I said I would not raise a hand against you and I should think you know I always keep my word, but the camaraderie we once shared is long broken.
no subject
Date: 2022-09-26 12:33 am (UTC)Yet... I beg your indulgence in one more thing. Before your name was revealed, while you wore this form I did not recognize, I've no doubt you recognized me. I ask not why you kept the secret, but rather, why -- with all that lies between us, and the camaraderie broken -- did you show me courtesy and kindness? (For that was courtesy and kindness, by your standards -- I recognize that in you still, as I do now in this exchange of thoughts which has remained such.)
no subject
Date: 2022-10-01 04:41 pm (UTC)Not that it matters now.
no subject
Date: 2022-10-01 05:15 pm (UTC)Overlooking that not all people are courteous and decent; some are, to put it mildly, aggravating by nature?
And feigning no knowledge of the greatsword would have cost you nothing and helped me not at all, which you did not do. Or even assisting me in battle, which you could have avoid without guilt, knowing perfectly well that I can fend for myself. For that matter, what of claiming Garlean heritage and thus being intolerant and scornful of an apparent Eorzean Hyur, or one wielding a sword in the manner of one?
And let us not pretend you thought that concealing your name would last. All told, the balance of your reasoning does not match the weight of your actions... particularly since we continue to be civil and courteous to each other, gulf of actions of eras notwithstanding.
apologies, been a long week
Date: 2022-10-10 09:46 pm (UTC)What answer do you want out of me? I am simply tired of pretending to be someone I am not. I never had to wear a mask for so long before and until my death I had worn one for twelve thousand years. Can you not leave it at that? I do not care to dissect the whys and wherefores of my own actions. Especially not now.
S'okay!
Date: 2022-10-12 01:17 pm (UTC)I persist... because whatsoever enmity lies between us, whatever camaraderie has died to never be reborn, nonetheless you and I cannot help but share a bond. We two are the only ones who can ever, will ever, understand that gulf of twelve millennia. None else could - none other from the Etheirys of now, nor its shards, nor even Hythlodaeus. You are the only person I can speak to of watching the star struggle and strive ever forward who can comprehend what I mean, and I the only one you can. It is not a bond we chose, but it is one that exists nonetheless. And thus I wonder if you recognize that, if you realize that, if you understand that. And I wonder, too, where the line within you now lies, the one you have ever maintained and we who know you have ever recognized, between the grouchy curmudgeon Emet-Selch and the good and kind man (albeit still something of a curmudgeon) Hades.
no subject
Date: 2022-10-13 04:33 am (UTC)He hates it. He's tired of it. He doesn't know what else to do but put one foot in front of the other and get through each day as it comes.
We wouldn't be the only ones who understood mortal struggles if you hadn't sundered our people, he thinks resentfully. But he knows better than to express that to her. ]
Even if I were to acknowledge that such a bond exists - so what? I am not going to sit around and recount centuries of trauma and heartbreak for your amusement when 'tis plain that you cannot seem to grasp that not everyone shares your lack of sentiment. If you understand me as well as you claim then you should understand why I wish to keep to myself now. I am tired, Hydaelyn. The world is no longer my concern. I should be in the aetherial sea with Hythlodaeus - the Hythlodaeus of my own time - waiting for our souls to unravel and join the rest of our people. But I am not. I am here, with an old friend who instead has yet to sacrifice himself to Zodiark, and I have a unique opportunity to prevent it from ever happening.
Nothing else matters. Do you understand? It is difficult enough caring about the business which keeps us clothed and fed. If I had my way, I would be stepping off the White Cliffs or tying stones to my feet and throwing myself at the mercy of the creatures of the sea. Any kindness I show to you or anyone else is in the sole interest of making life here as simple as possible and to give myself work so that I do not have time to think about how much more comforting death would be.
no subject
Date: 2022-10-17 02:22 pm (UTC)[Though he might be pleased to know his barbs did hurt. 'Lack of sentiment', indeed. Does he cast her as so heartless because he truly believes it, or simply because that is easier to handle than accepting the nuance of the situation, and it is easier to demonize her that way?]
I understand the tiredness, the exhaustion, the desire for rest, as no other can. And I also know you, and understand that no amount of 'work' or distraction would spare you from contemplating that rest, not for long. Nor pursuing it, were you so inclined. You have chosen to live. None of this 'if I had my way' or 'I should be this or that' -- it is not this world keeping you here, nor Hytholdaeus, but your own choice.
Would it be wrong of me to suspect how guilty you feel about that choice? Would it surprise you to know that I, who have ever embraced life and the living of it, before and now, crave the rest I have been denied and feel guilt about such a desire? That I do not entirely know where my joy of life ends and my obligation to continue helping and guiding ends?
We are reflections of each other, Hades. We share so much and yet also stand at such stark contrast to each other. Yet we have both chosen life, again. Something inside me tells me that we can help each other embrace that choice, and make the most of those lives... because only we can know what that choice means to us.